North Whiteley development

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North Whiteley development

Postby StephenR » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:16 am

I see the minutes of the 'North of Whiteley Forum' are now available and they make depressing reading. If we for a minute ignore the assembled personnel who are in charge in the vain hope that their judgement and expertise have improved over the years, we can examine the facts.
The extension of Whiteley is known as a Major Development Area or MDA. The assumption is housing development will begin in 2012. The consulation of Whiteley residents raised only a few concerns:
Consultation with the Whiteley community during earlier stages of preparing Winchester’s Local Development Framework has indicated that there is, in principle, no great controversy regarding further development. Understandably, however, existing residents are very concerned that it should help to resolve existing infrastructure issues and have as little detrimental impact as possible on themselves.

Afair assessment if understated perhaps.

During public participation following the presentation, concerns were raised that mistakes made during the creation of the existing Whiteley development (relating mainly to insufficient school places and the incomplete Whiteley Way) would be compounded by the development of an additional 3,000 homes. In reply Mr Tilbury stated that, on the contrary, the new MDA was an opportunity to resolve some of these existing problems, via the developer’s financial infrastructure contributions.


Fine words and no doubt meant to reassure. However, we should remember that we are still sitting on the developers contributions from the 1990s build and the developers certainly wont contribute to a school servibg the existing Whiteley development.


But then we get the knockout blow:

The Forum then discussed the timing and sequencing of the infrastructure and noted that, whilst there was a demand to achieve much of this early on in the development, there were a number of constraining factors to this ambition. Not least amongst these was cost. Developers’ ability to provide infrastructure items was often determined by the cash-flow achieved from the sell of new dwellings; therefore legal agreements often required items to be produced after the completion of a certain number of dwellings. Other constraints included the planning process and the ability of partners, such as the education authority to build and operate what could initially be schools with less than full capacities. However, notwithstanding these constraints, Mr Tilbury underlined that officers and Members were very clearly aware of the issues regarding infrastructure needs in Whiteley (such as education and roads) and that these would be secured in legal agreements and provided as soon as practicably possible.


I'm not sure how Mr Tilbury can say notwithstanding these constraints as they are significant and the root cause of our current problems. The education authorities will not commit to building a school for the existing Whiteley surplus as they claim they have no money. Secondly the developers will not build roads until so many houses have been completed and as we saw with Yew tree Drive they can stay below that number for some time and also get the number in increased. So how many houses will there be and how many cars and schoolchildren before the infrastructure is built.

Then we get the view of the developer :

Mr Barker stated that this early draft would be subject to many changes as work progressed, but one of the main issues it had already identified was the that original route of Whiteley Way would need to be revisited. The route which had received planning consent some years ago, not only bisected the area likely to form the new MDA, but was also crossed the most environmentally sensitive area of the landscape. Neither would be considered acceptable impacts today and therefore the route would need to be reconsidered, as would the primary purpose of the road, which was no longer viewed as a potential distributor route.

So Whiteley way is no longer planned to be a distributor road. So going forward with the existing houses, businesses and school runs we will still only have a single distributor road into Whiteley. So while Mr Tilbury may see the MDA as an opportunity to resolve the problems of the school and the roads I dont see practicably how this will be done, in fact I can only see it getting worse.
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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby happy_days » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:30 pm

Should be simple...

Do not give planning permission to the developers, without conditions being imposed on the completion of infrastructure (Whiteley Way). The condition needs to be for the physical building of the roads, not the giving of money to the Local Authority, as history shows they can not be trusted with this.

WCC will be the planning authority - it should not give permission without committment from HCC to put the necessary school places in (or one of these new free schools).

Lets remember the agendas (agendi ?) at work:

* Developers - to build as many houses for the lowest possible cost.
* WCC - build as much in Whiteley as you can since it is miles from Winchester City and conviniently takes a great chunk out of their housing target.
* HCC - don't want to spend any money as this could be better used on new carpet at City Hall.
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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby StephenR » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:11 am

I think we should also remember FBC and of course the individual agendas. FBC I see want another representative even though they have two FBC councillors and the WPC chairman. Their answer to the problems created by the first attempt at development is to build another. In much the same way that a million monkeys on a million typewriters will produce a shakespeare play, if they have enough goes it might just work out OK. We still seem to have no strategic transport plan. When quizzed in the past, the answer from Allgood and Woodward has always been to wait until Whiteley Way is completed. This is now not going to happen in the way it was envisaged in 1996. So what cunning plan do they have for the corresponding increases in commuting. The Saturn model conveniently predicted a reduction in traffic in East Whiteley when Whiteley Way is opened. I expect using the same assumptions that people will walk to school and work and not leave via Junction 9 all will be fine. The Forum said it needed a vision.It certainly does and a believable approach to achieving that.
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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby wendy » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:31 pm

It does sound lovely, doesn’t it? Somehow the main issues of adequate roads, enough parking for residents’ vehicles, and a reasonable number of school places will be compromised as they always are by developers’ agendas, council budgets, and inability to foresee the obvious. The residents and potential residents would like roads that actually connect to where they want to go and school places for their children. But alas, the timing and sequencing of the infrastructure (don’t you love that phrase) may not allow this fantasy to be fulfilled. Legal agreements for the developers to produce x once y number of houses are sold are usually flouted.

This is another good one: other constraints…the education authority to build and operate what could initially be schools with less than full capacities. No point in building a school until you have at least half the pupil numbers, so that by the time the school is built, staffed and opened, it’s over-subscribed. In the meantime where will all these children go to school? It was mentioned that 2 new primaries with 4-6 forms of entry might be needed. Considering that we need about 4 ½ forms at present and not yet up to total build for Whiteley of 3000 houses, we will need at least 4 ½ more forms for another 3000 houses. That’s 9 forms in total, we currently have 3. Does anyone really think HCC will build 2 3-form entry primaries? And at what point will this secondary materialize?

Then there’s Whiteley Way, which apparently needs to be revisited (another great phrase). Here’s a riddle for you. Since YTD and Rookery allegedly cannot be opened until a road which technically never existed and in reality will never happen (which most of us knew anyway), keeping YTD and Rookery closed is an invalid argument. I lost interest in that particular topic years ago but it certainly appears to be a moot point now and rather redundant (somewhat like Woodward himself). Plus the admission that the planned route bisects the MDA and traverses a SINC must have come as an incredible surprise. Who planned that route we demand to know! Oh, never mind, it was a rhetorical question.

Someone mentioned transport strategy. That seems to be an oxymoron when it comes to HCC. The description on the map says it all:
3. Transport
A place with a connected network of slow streets (Translation: narrow streets clogged with parked cars) with an emphasis on sustainable transport options (Translation: an occasional bus) giving ready access to local facilities, and forging links to the wider area (Translation: your job will be a 30-45 minute drive from here).
4. Community
A place with a cohesive community (Translation: joined in adversity) that will support existing Whiteley (Translation: I have no idea what this means) whilst providing much needed mixed housing (Translation: lots of terraces, flats, and shared ownership) and social infrastructure focused around a village centre, enhancing self-containment (Translation: this is what they said about Whiteley, oh dear).
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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby StephenR » Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:15 am

If there appears to be 'constraints' to what residents have actually asked for then surely it must be time to look at the planning laws. Why not ask the Whiteley MP to the forum. The government is already changing planning laws with regards to brown field sites. Perhaps it should look at green field development. We know HCC wont do anything unless it is legally obliged to do so and developers will avoid paying for infrastructure if they can get away with it so this is something central government should take an interest in. It's all very well setting housing targets but where's the legislation to make sure we have good sustainable developments.
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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby happy_days » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:17 am

wendy wrote:4. Community
A place with a cohesive community (Translation: joined in adversity) that will support existing Whiteley (Translation: I have no idea what this means) whilst providing much needed mixed housing (Translation: lots of terraces, flats, and shared ownership) and social infrastructure focused around a village centre, enhancing self-containment (Translation: this is what they said about Whiteley, oh dear).


Cohesive community - everyone lives on top of each other beacuse the developers have squashed the houses in and the planners have let them (and there is nowhere to park beacuse everyone will use the bus won't they ?).

Support existing Whiteley - as you correctly identify, PC claptrap. I can only imagine that this refers to potential new supporters for the football team.

Mixed housing - lots of Housing Association.

Social infrastructure focused around a village centre - a Starbucks or McDonalds (depending on the percentage of Housing Association decided on).

Enhancing self-containment - still only one road out.

Never mind...the developers brochures will have lovely artists impressions !
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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby wendy » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:12 pm

The Curbridge Preservation Society, though small, has an excellent coverage of the North Whiteley plans and their impact.

http://www.curbridgepreservationsociety ... fault.html

It identifies the flood risk, radon gas, and the obvious one of inadequate roads and increased traffic. While pleased that Woodward included them in his traffic study questionnaire (apparently WPC did not), they are very displeased that PUSH (which Woodward chairs) is apparently strongly supporting the N. Whiteley development.

Unfortunately Whiteley residents, split between FBC and WCC (with WPC thrown in), have been so abused by the authorities that it's difficult to raise an interest. Most are happy to be lulled into the fantasy that another 3000 houses will solve our education and travel problems. If we stop long enough to analyze the claims, we are met with the horror that is overdevelopment with the strategic vision of Mr. Magoo.

New MP George Hollingbery responded to the CPS: 'I believe that more development is required at North Whiteley if Whiteley is to become a community that can stand on its own two feet.' One of the more nonsensical comments.

Assuming the developers get their way, will they start building from the north end, the south end, or both at once? Without any other through roads that means ALL the new building traffic plus new residents will be shunted through jct. 9 and, of course, Leafy Lane, until someone allows a through road to be built/opened.

Of the two proposed primary schools, one will be built in what they're calling North of Whiteley, on a site reminiscent of the one Thornber spent £50k on to prove it was unsuitable. The other appears to be located more northerly in something they're calling Great Curbridge. Even if the first school materializes its catchment will be North of Whiteley, so any children in the new housing will get first placement. Now residents in Whiteley could also put the new school on their form, but they will be treated as out-of-catchment. In the beginning, there will probably be some places still available, but how these children will get there from the Dickens Drive area would be the question as there is no pedestrian access from the housing.
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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby StephenR » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:54 pm

Unfortunately Whiteley residents, split between FBC and WCC (with WPC thrown in), have been so abused by the authorities that it's difficult to raise an interest. Most are happy to be lulled into the fantasy that another 3000 houses will solve our education and travel problems. If we stop long enough to analyze the claims, we are met with the horror that is overdevelopment with the strategic vision of Mr. Magoo.


This is so true. It's difficult to understand a situation that will be 'improved' by the addition of another 3000 houses. Developers money cannot really be used to improve an area outside the development although HCC seem to have stretched this point recently by upgrading Segensworth roundabout for the benefit of Whiteley residents using Solent 2 money. Nor will they provide a school for an existing population. They did as you say provide a piece of 'unsuitable' land for HCC to build on but this was turned down as HCC and the two County Councillors preferred building on the football pitch. I'm sure all eyes will be on the Whiteley fund, put aside to complete Whiteley Way but as it wont now be a distributor road wasn't this money taken from homeowners on false pretences?
As you say North Whiteley gives the impression that this will all be happening some distance away and we wont be bothered but as there very little to opportuniy 'north' most people will be working in Fareham, Portsmouth and Southampton as they do now. So can Junction 9 cope? Can Segensworth cope and what will they do about east whiteley which already seems to challenge the highways department. I'm not sure about standing on it's own two feet, we already provide a big chunk of WCCs income from the business park. We'll be on our knees if they get this wrong and isn't it about time we got something for the money we've already contributed?
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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby annie » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:24 pm

This all makes for quite depressing reading really. When you see who the Whiteley representativecommitte members are it's like putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum. Really though, if you think that Whiteley has problems now just wait until these people have organised North Whiteley, I can't see how it can be anything but a complete shambles. I notice that in the minutes they are calling it "masterplanning", hmm - I don't think this lot could organise a party in a brewery without some major hitches. I really fear for the future of Whiteley, it looks to me as if more mistakes and bad planning will be heaped on top of the mess we already have.

From a blank piece of paper HCC have created a disaster. Although after having dealt with HCC quite a lot this doesn't surprise me in the least - they faff about, don't listen to residents, make up the rules as they go along, waste a huge amount of time and resources, bang on about not having any money, and then ultimately achieve nothing at all. Ah perhaps I'm not being entirely fair here about them not achieving anything - they pulled off the refurb of their HQ very successfully, apparently it's amazing and no expense was spared.
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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby StephenR » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:16 am

LDF - Live for the future
July 2010 - Issue 17








LDF Bulletin
______________

Local Development Framework Update

Since the last e-newsletter in February this year, much has changed with the election of the Coalition Government in May. A number of statements have been made since then suggesting ‘reforms’ to the planning system – the most fundamental of these being the decision on 6 July to revoke Regional Spatial Strategies with immediate effect.

This means that the South East Plan no longer exists. This had directed planning policy at District level through setting targets for the amount of new housing in the District over the next twenty years. The emphasis is now on communities themeselves making certain decisions that effect them, through 'Localism'. DCLG website

As a result of this it has been necessary for us to reconsider how we proceed with the LDF Core Strategy and other Development Plan Documents under the Local Development Framework umbrella. The Council’s LDF Cabinet Committee will consider on 22nd July a report which sets out a way forward, making use of both the technical evidence and community consultation that has been undertaken so far. LDF Committee Report CAB 2040(LDF)

Primarily our focus over the next few months will be to continue with Core Strategy preparation, albeit to an amended timescale to allow for community consultation to discuss the amount of new housing and other forms of development that is needed in the towns and villages of Winchester District. Watch this space for further details of events.


The South Downs National Park

The South Downs National Park will formally become the Planning Authority for LDF purposes as of April 2011, covering that part of the District the lies within this newly created National Park. Have a look at the South Downs National Park website to see if you’re in the National Park http://www.southdowns.gov.uk At present the plan is to work with National Park officers to jointly prepare a Core Strategy for the Winchester District, however in the longer term the National Park Authority will prepare its own LDF. A map showing the extent of how much of the District lies within the National Park can be seen at Appendix C of the LDF report on 22nd July. CAB 2040 (LDF)


Evidence

Evidence will still play a key part in LDF preparation and justification for the emerging policies and proposals. Existing evidence studies can be viewed or downloaded from the LDF Evidence page on the City Council's website. In addition a number of additional studies have just been completed or are in the process of being finalised and CAB 2039(LDF) gives a brief description of these studies which will be posted on the Council’s website in due course. In addition, given the emphasis on localism, the Council is in the process of updating its Rural Facilities Audit and Settlement Profiles for the larger towns and villages in the rural parts of the District and will be requesting town and parish councils to assist with this project over the next few months.


Garden Grabbing - what does this really mean?

Again the new Government has made changes to the definition of previously developed land to specifically exclude residential gardens. Given such sites are an important source of new houses across the District, this matter is being reported to the Councils LDF Cabinet Committee on 22nd July as part of report CAB 2037 (LDF) to clarify the implication of these changes and how planning applications will be treated.


Refresh of the Sustainable Community Strategy

The Council is seeking views from anyone who lives or works in the Winchester District to help shape the community strategy. The strategy provides a vision for the future and sets out how Winchester City Council will work with other organisations to improve the quality of life for the District’s 110,000 residents over the next decade. Consultaion Document.

The Community Stategy and Local Development Framework both support the role and functions of the Council and its partners, there are several ways you can give your views on the refresh:

1. Complete the simple form at http://www.winchester.gov.uk/ShowForm.asp
2. email your ideas to Alison Woods at awoods@winchester.gov.uk
3. or send a letter to Alison Woods at:

Winchester City Council
City Offices
Colebrook Street
Winchester
Hampshire
SO23 9LJ.

The consultation ends on 13 August 2010.


Strategic Planning Team

Winchester City Council
City Offices
Colebrook Street
Winchester
Hampshire
SO23 9LJ

Tel: 01962 840 222
ldf@winchester.gov.uk




http://www.winchester.gov.uk/liveforthefuture

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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby Hampshire Bus » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:50 pm

happy_days wrote:
wendy wrote:4. Community
A place with a cohesive community (Translation: joined in adversity) that will support existing Whiteley (Translation: I have no idea what this means) whilst providing much needed mixed housing (Translation: lots of terraces, flats, and shared ownership) and social infrastructure focused around a village centre, enhancing self-containment (Translation: this is what they said about Whiteley, oh dear).


Cohesive community - everyone lives on top of each other beacuse the developers have squashed the houses in and the planners have let them (and there is nowhere to park beacuse everyone will use the bus won't they ?).

Support existing Whiteley - as you correctly identify, PC claptrap. I can only imagine that this refers to potential new supporters for the football team.

Mixed housing - lots of Housing Association.

Social infrastructure focused around a village centre - a Starbucks or McDonalds (depending on the percentage of Housing Association decided on).

Enhancing self-containment - still only one road out.

Never mind...the developers brochures will have lovely artists impressions !

I believe WCC policy is 35% affordable housing. May be 30%.
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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby Hampshire Bus » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:52 pm

wendy wrote:The Curbridge Preservation Society, though small, has an excellent coverage of the North Whiteley plans and their impact.

http://www.curbridgepreservationsociety ... fault.html

It identifies the flood risk, radon gas, and the obvious one of inadequate roads and increased traffic. While pleased that Woodward included them in his traffic study questionnaire (apparently WPC did not), they are very displeased that PUSH (which Woodward chairs) is apparently strongly supporting the N. Whiteley development.

Unfortunately Whiteley residents, split between FBC and WCC (with WPC thrown in), have been so abused by the authorities that it's difficult to raise an interest. Most are happy to be lulled into the fantasy that another 3000 houses will solve our education and travel problems. If we stop long enough to analyze the claims, we are met with the horror that is overdevelopment with the strategic vision of Mr. Magoo.

New MP George Hollingbery responded to the CPS: 'I believe that more development is required at North Whiteley if Whiteley is to become a community that can stand on its own two feet.' One of the more nonsensical comments.

Assuming the developers get their way, will they start building from the north end, the south end, or both at once? Without any other through roads that means ALL the new building traffic plus new residents will be shunted through jct. 9 and, of course, Leafy Lane, until someone allows a through road to be built/opened.

Of the two proposed primary schools, one will be built in what they're calling North of Whiteley, on a site reminiscent of the one Thornber spent £50k on to prove it was unsuitable. The other appears to be located more northerly in something they're calling Great Curbridge. Even if the first school materializes its catchment will be North of Whiteley, so any children in the new housing will get first placement. Now residents in Whiteley could also put the new school on their form, but they will be treated as out-of-catchment. In the beginning, there will probably be some places still available, but how these children will get there from the Dickens Drive area would be the question as there is no pedestrian access from the housing.

It's called a hole in the fence off of Maryat way. Although on the plan that was shown at the last exhibition a footpath was drawn on the map. However methinks the developers didn't realise - or bother to realise - that the land it was on is in fact FBC's!
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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby StephenR » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:45 am

This means that the South East Plan no longer exists. This had directed planning policy at District level through setting targets for the amount of new housing in the District over the next twenty years. The emphasis is now on communities themeselves making certain decisions that effect them, through 'Localism'.


It will be interesting to see who still wants North Whiteley to go ahead. With no commitment on infrastructure from the developers I would suggest WCC are in a stronger position as they no longer have to meet government targets. The developers have held Whiteley to ransome over Whiteley Way for some years and their investment will come to nothing if this doesn't go ahead. We should see some concessions now from the developers about solving the current problems before they create more. At least we can hope.
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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby happy_days » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:15 pm

StephenR wrote:
This means that the South East Plan no longer exists. This had directed planning policy at District level through setting targets for the amount of new housing in the District over the next twenty years. The emphasis is now on communities themeselves making certain decisions that effect them, through 'Localism'.


It will be interesting to see who still wants North Whiteley to go ahead. With no commitment on infrastructure from the developers I would suggest WCC are in a stronger position as they no longer have to meet government targets. The developers have held Whiteley to ransome over Whiteley Way for some years and their investment will come to nothing if this doesn't go ahead. We should see some concessions now from the developers about solving the current problems before they create more. At least we can hope.


We can hope. Much has changed, but money still talks!
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Re: North Whiteley development

Postby StephenR » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:56 am

It appears Eastleigh Council have seen sense and scrapped the Hedge End devlopment

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/fareham-and ... 6439758.jp

It's clear there is very little money around for infrastructure improvments so going ahead does seem like like folly.

Caroline Dibden, who leads the group said: 'We look forward to learning that other local authorities in the south of Hampshire will follow suit.

'We continue to have concerns about the North of Fareham strategic development area and new proposals for a business park on the slopes of Portsdown Hill at Junction 11 of the M27.'


I think I can understand their concerns. FBC do seem have a patchy record on infrastructure development given the problems they've created in Whiteley, Swanwick and Park Gate.
North Whiteley also provides no infrastructure improvements. Perhaps regeneration of brown field sites woud be better here. Increasaing commuter traffic is just madness.

You can contact CPRE here : http://www.cpre.org.uk/home
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